Jump to content

ATTENTION: YOUR COOPERATION IS NEEDED! PLEASE READ THE LATEST ANNOUNCEMENT.

HaZe

Oboro, Kagerou and Rebellion Skills

Should Oboro/Kagerou & Rebellion skills be DISABLED in 2nd job PvP/WoE/BG Arenas?  

61 members have voted

You do not have permission to vote in this poll, or see the poll results. Please sign in or register to vote in this poll.

Recommended Posts

I have disabled in BG, 2nd Jobs PvP and WoE and enabled only in maps where 3rd job skills are enabled.

My reasoning behind it is... While iRO wiki has those jobs classified as "Extended 2nd Jobs" -- those jobs & skills did not exist when the transcendent patch came out. Heck, they were even released after 3rd jobs were released..so I consider them to be the same as 3rd jobs. Kind of want to keep the essence of 2nd jobs/trans PvP/WoE arenas the way they were before... Oboro/Kagerou/Rebellion skills are still not balanced, much like a lot of the 3rd job skills.

This is definitely not a permanent decision, more of a trial period and a start for a discussion about it.

I want to see how the PvP data changes when those skills are removed from 2nd job pvp arenas. Right now Ninjas (Oboro/Kagerou) are extreme outliers and I'm interested to see the balance with those jobs excluded.

I welcome you to change my mind! Let the rant begin!

  • Thanks 2
  • Haha 2
  • Upvote 5
  • Downvote 2

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

yeah disable them broken renewal skills!

even the passive of warlocks that radius skill BS!

Rangers should have the exclusivity of the longest range in 2nd job HA.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Disable Rich Coin 
Shattering Storm
Banishing Buster

Fallen Angel 

Slug Shot 

"NO DEFENSIVE" Skill just Play YOLO now and play Rapid shower or  Fullbuster (New Meta) or (old Meta Like Gunslinger)

Like 

Mass Spiral - Rifle Gun 2handed

Howling Mine - Granade launcher 2handed

Fire Rain - Gatling Gun 2handed

Dragon tail - Granade Launcher 2handed

Round Grip - Gatling gun 2handed 

Hammer God -Rifle Gun (and this skill not working )2handed

And Different Bullet per Gun 

i need to wait SATURDAY so i can use my "2nd job skill in WOE" hahaha very nice ❤️

Edited by poochai
  • Haha 2

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

kagero/oboro and rebellions is expanded job.. not 3rd job classes..
it is already listed on iRO wiki..
if u count kagero/oboro and rebellions as a 3rd job.. it means they should have Transcendent Second Class..
they dont have it, so it should be not disabled.. because expanded class is expanded one, not the main class..
they arent counted as 3rd job or 2nd job..
so it should be enabled all the skill

and the class of kagero/oboro and rebellions is the same as soul linker and TaeKwon master(star gladiator)..
if u want to disable dont disable just two job of it, but all the same class as kagero/oboro and rebellions..
BUT it is impossible to disable all the expanded job.. so it means u dont need to disable it..

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
2 minutes ago, eucliwod said:

kagero/oboro and rebellions is expanded job.. not 3rd job classes..
it is already listed on iRO wiki..
if u count kagero/oboro and rebellions as a 3rd job.. it means they should have Transcendent Second Class..
they dont have it, so it should be not disabled.. because expanded class is expanded one, not the main class..
they arent counted as 3rd job or 2nd job..
so it should be enabled all the skill

and the class of kagero/oboro and rebellions is the same as soul linker and TaeKwon master(star gladiator)..
if u want to disable dont disable just two job of it, but all the same class as kagero/oboro and rebellions..
BUT it is impossible to disable all the expanded job.. so it means u dont need to disable it..

Soul Linker and Star Gladiator existed in pre-renewal. Did Oboro/Kagerou, Rebellion or 3rd jobs exist in pre-renewal?

  • Upvote 2
  • Downvote 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
12 minutes ago, HaZe said:

Soul Linker and Star Gladiator existed in pre-renewal. Did Oboro/Kagerou, Rebellion or 3rd jobs exist in pre-renewal?

i forgot, and i cant find that job is from renewal or pre renewal..

but here is the things.. if u want to count all the timeline same as the official RO.. u should add 3rd expanded job(star emperors and soul reapers was added at 20th june 2018 a year ago already at official server)..
then i can agree with this changes.. bcz with all due respect to you HaZe, Oboro/Kagerou and Rebellion are still counted as 2nd expanded job..

as mentioned from the Rebellion job player.. how can he run with the skill if no expanded 2nd job skill..

Edited by eucliwod
lack of information
  • Upvote 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
7 minutes ago, eucliwod said:

i forgot, and i cant find that job is from renewal or pre renewal..

but here is the things.. if u want to count all the timeline same as the official RO.. u should add 3rd expanded job(star emperors and soul reapers was added at 20th june 2018 a year ago already at official server)..
then i can agree with this changes.. bcz with all due respect to you HaZe, Oboro/Kagerou and Rebellion are still counted as 2nd expanded job..

as mentioned from the Rebellion job player.. how can he run with the skill if no expanded 2nd job skill..

I dont see the relevance between star emperors/soul reapers and oboro/kagerou and rebellion lol. To answer my own question, no, those jobs did not exist in pre renewal..hence why they were removed from 2nd job pvp arenas (which to me should be limited to pre-renewal skills).

Ninjas and Gunslinger did absolutely fine before we moved to renewal. Their skills were boosted and they were on par and sometimes even better than some trans jobs. At one point gunners were preferred over Snipers.

If the arguement is that those jobs are currently not as balanced as they were before, then I would welcome any suggestion to those skills to bring them up to par with other trans job. Same as they were a couple of years ago on our server

 

  • Upvote 1
  • Downvote 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
15 hours ago, HaZe said:

Oboro/Kagerou/Rebellion skills are still not balanced, much like a lot of the 3rd job skills.

I'd like to consider this one of the biggest reasons why it was disabled.

As mentioned in the original post, there's still room for discussion. It can be re-enabled if that's how it concludes.
I mean, Fallen Angel was usable inside BG and castles and it was somewhat infuriating; though I will refrain from mentioning any argument about balancing --this skill--

Edited by Artemia

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Though I will refrain from mentioning any argument about balancing...

this is how it should be from the very beginning, and is the actual fix that mattered to most of us. it's a combination skills of ninja as a whole; it makes them almost untouchable and spit damage like crazy, despite of it being flagged 3rd or not.
I mean I'm sure the data shows that these jobs are doing exceptional in the pvp scene.

Edited by caramellmacchiato
  • Upvote 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
2 hours ago, HaZe said:

I dont see the relevance between star emperors/soul reapers and oboro/kagerou and rebellion lol. To answer my own question, no, those jobs did not exist in pre renewal..hence why they were removed from 2nd job pvp arenas (which to me should be limited to pre-renewal skills).

Ninjas and Gunslinger did absolutely fine before we moved to renewal. Their skills were boosted and they were on par and sometimes even better than some trans jobs. At one point gunners were preferred over Snipers.

If the arguement is that those jobs are currently not as balanced as they were before, then I would welcome any suggestion to those skills to bring them up to par with other trans job. Same as they were a couple of years ago on our server

 

Please Correct me If I am wrong.

The Job order is:

Novice>Ninja>Kagerou/Oboro

Novice>GS>Rebellion

Novice>TK>SG/SL

Novice>SN>Expanded SN

Novice>1st Job (Mage)>2nd Job (Wizard)>Reborn (Novice)>1st Job (High Mage)>2nd Job (High Wizard)>3rd Job (WL)?

 

Based on the foregoing, Kagerou/Oboro/Rebellion is only 2nd class, same with SG and SL. This is also same with Expanded SN and 2nd Job (High Wizard). In effect there is no reason disabling their skills because they are not 3rd Jobs. 

 

It is noted that kagerou/oboro/rebellion only came out after Renewal, however, I do not think this is the proper reason in disabling them. 

1. There is 3rd jobs arena and HA. The name already speaks for itself, only 3rd jobs should be isolated.

 

2. Only counting the skills, the number of skills of these jobs are very FEW compared to other class (HW).

 

3. There was already a 25% nerf on ninja elemental damage. There was no complain on this AND I don't even think the nerf was in proper time. 

 3.1 Please note that physical ninja is not viable now because of the changes in fuma shuriken. (RENEWAL CHANGE)

 3.2 There are a lot of NEW ITEMS to nerf magic damage. Ninja only has 3 magic elements. Nerf all 3, ninja is useless in war since the damage can be reduced to 1 or less than 1k per hit. (I Have seen many people do this) Ninja doesnt have ghost damage like WL/Sorc/SN. It cannot also use old parasol. So, in short, when a magic ninja is nerfed by elemental resist, it is useless in war.

 3.3 If we recall Rad's suggestion, we agree that charm damage should be reduced which was done in patch 2, BUT physical damage must be FIXED. Because if not, the class would die.

 

4. We are already implementing renewal in HA such as defense balance, new stat system, damage formula, etc. Hence, I do not think that just because kagerou/oborro/rebellion was implemented after renewal is enough reason to disable its skills.

 

5. If we are talking about balance, we already agreed (WHICH HAPPENED ALREADY IN PATCH 2) to reduce charm damage of ninja, BUT to balance out the loss of power, Physical Ninja must be viable. 

 

6. If we are talking about K/D Ratio, I hope we consider the individuals who uses ninja. Please check their other characters. They also do well on the other jobs. It may seem that ninjas are outliers because only a few use it. And probably those few have mastery or knowledge of ninja.

 

7. It is also quite disturbing that people who complain about ninja is from our enemy guild. They already brought ninja and we never complained about it. This might seem to be irrelevant but this is relevant to #6. This is because it can indicate that the high K/D Ratio of ninja is because of those individuals who are really good in ninja. 

 

I hope these points are taken into consideration in implementing these changes. I AGREE IN BALANCING THE CLASS, NOT KILLING THE CLASS.

  • Upvote 3
  • Downvote 3

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Well the majority have spoken Oboro and Kagerou's charms are broken and that anti cloak/hide skill works like an ankle snare as well without flee reduction.

Disable them there is a reason they get 100+ streak by themselves.

They don't even need any kind of support

Cause they can just jump around and take the easy pick offs.

You can't even chase them to stop them.

If you deal that much damage you should be a glass cannon and they're not cause they can avoid like

95% of skill damage in the game.

  • Upvote 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
11 minutes ago, ZeroGravity said:

Please Correct me If I am wrong.

The Job order is:

Novice>Ninja>Kagerou/Oboro

Novice>GS>Rebellion

Novice>TK>SG/SL

Novice>SN>Expanded SN

Novice>1st Job (Mage)>2nd Job (Wizard)>Reborn (Novice)>1st Job (High Mage)>2nd Job (High Wizard)>3rd Job (WL)?

 

Based on the foregoing, Kagerou/Oboro/Rebellion is only 2nd class, same with SG and SL. This is also same with Expanded SN and 2nd Job (High Wizard). In effect there is no reason disabling their skills because they are not 3rd Jobs. 

 

It is noted that kagerou/oboro/rebellion only came out after Renewal, however, I do not think this is the proper reason in disabling them. 

1. There is 3rd jobs arena and HA. The name already speaks for itself, only 3rd jobs should be isolated.

 

2. Only counting the skills, the number of skills of these jobs are very FEW compared to other class (HW).

 

3. There was already a 25% nerf on ninja elemental damage. There was no complain on this AND I don't even think the nerf was in proper time. 

 3.1 Please note that physical ninja is not viable now because of the changes in fuma shuriken. (RENEWAL CHANGE)

 3.2 There are a lot of NEW ITEMS to nerf magic damage. Ninja only has 3 magic elements. Nerf all 3, ninja is useless in war since the damage can be reduced to 1 or less than 1k per hit. (I Have seen many people do this) Ninja doesnt have ghost damage like WL/Sorc/SN. It cannot also use old parasol. So, in short, when a magic ninja is nerfed by elemental resist, it is useless in war.

 3.3 If we recall Rad's suggestion, we agree that charm damage should be reduced which was done in patch 2, BUT physical damage must be FIXED. Because if not, the class would die.

 

4. We are already implementing renewal in HA such as defense balance, new stat system, damage formula, etc. Hence, I do not think that just because kagerou/oborro/rebellion was implemented after renewal is enough reason to disable its skills.

 

5. If we are talking about balance, we already agreed (WHICH HAPPENED ALREADY IN PATCH 2) to reduce charm damage of ninja, BUT to balance out the loss of power, Physical Ninja must be viable. 

 

6. If we are talking about K/D Ratio, I hope we consider the individuals who uses ninja. Please check their other characters. They also do well on the other jobs. It may seem that ninjas are outliers because only a few use it. And probably those few have mastery or knowledge of ninja.

 

7. It is also quite disturbing that people who complain about ninja is from our enemy guild. They already brought ninja and we never complained about it. This might seem to be irrelevant but this is relevant to #6. This is because it can indicate that the high K/D Ratio of ninja is because of those individuals who are really good in ninja. 

 

I hope these points are taken into consideration in implementing these changes. I AGREE IN BALANCING THE CLASS, NOT KILLING THE CLASS.

1. The name “3rd job pvp” was way before we moved to renewal, we couldnt name it renewal pvp because it wasnt renewal. I do consider it to be an arena where all skills are enabled, while 2nd jobs pvp would be up to trans classes and no renewal skills. Dont base it on the name of an arena base it on the purpose of the arena. The name is just a name..

2. Basing it on skill count, if you add swordman, knight and lord knight skills they add up to 23. If you count number of skills for ninja, it has 23. Swordman has only 5-6 skills so please dont compare a swordman to a ninja when it comes to skill count. If you add ninja+oboro skills they would have 50++, a lot more than most trans jobs.

3. Dont compare ninjas magic elements to warlock or sorcers. Warlocks cant go melee while ninjas have a whole melee skill set. In addition, warlocks dont have all the defensive and evasion skills that ninjas and oboro has, which pretty much makes then unkillable by most jobs when played right. 

4. We actually dont have a lot of renewal stats..atk and matk formulas are not renewal, neither is thanatos and def piercing damage. A lot of stats and mechanics were reverted to pre renewal of modified to behave closer to ore renewal.

5. Same as point 3, you cant have such high burst damage when the same job also has extensive evasive skills. The reduction of charm bonus is because we have boosted the base damage of most ninjas skills and with the default charm boost it was literally broken damage. This is unrelated to whether they should use their renewal skills in an arena where all other jobs cannot use their renewal skills.

6. Just this last 7 days there were 35 different ninjas with logged kills and deaths. Still the job has a k/d of 2.5 while most jobs have 1 or under 1. They also had the most kills per user and least deaths per user. So basically they had the best stats in all areas..its not just 3 of u that play ninja. This is data from pvp woe and bg.

7. Not going to comment on this as the removal of these jobs from 2nd job maps was solely my idea and not influenced by anybody. Its mind blowing that this wasnt suggested before or that i didnt disable them right after implementing them.

  • Upvote 3
  • Downvote 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
12 minutes ago, ZeroGravity said:

Nerf all 3, ninja is useless in war since the damage can be reduced to 1 or less than 1k per hit.

It's a fact that nerfing the 4 basic elements is relatively easy, but I very much disagree with this making the ninja useless. It doesn't do that AT ALL.

Nerfing all 4 basic elements does not come with no downsides. Generally, you can't resist everything. You are throwing away your resist to other elements by focusing on 3-4 elements. Say, neutral resist. Go ahead, use a GR scroll to nerf neutral, but you would be open to Ghost property damage (Napalm, Soul Strike, Immaterial Arrows to name a few).

It's the same idea with the role of Genetics in wars both before and after renewal AD patches. They used to deal minimal damage to GR users, but like I said, they'll be open to other properties.

Nerfing the entirety of magic Ninjas' skills would mean sudden death for most classes during heavy wars.

Oh, Wind Blade/Flaming Petals/Freezing Spear is dealing 1 damage. Wow, I just fully nerfed a magic Ninja. Time to die to Asura Strike/Sacrifice/Napalm Vulcan/Grimtooth/Full Buster--you get the point.

One last thing: it's always been my belief that 1v1 situations shouldn't be used as a scenario when discussing balance.

  • Upvote 4

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
6 minutes ago, HaZe said:

1. The name “3rd job pvp” was way before we moved to renewal, we couldnt name it renewal pvp because it wasnt renewal. I do consider it to be an arena where all skills are enabled, while 2nd jobs pvp would be up to trans classes and no renewal skills. Dont base it on the name of an arena base it on the purpose of the arena. The name is just a name..

2. Basing it on skill count, if you add swordman, knight and lord knight skills they add up to 23. If you count number of skills for ninja, it has 23. Swordman has only 5-6 skills so please dont compare a swordman to a ninja when it comes to skill count. If you add ninja+oboro skills they would have 50++, a lot more than most trans jobs.

3. Dont compare ninjas magic elements to warlock or sorcers. Warlocks cant go melee while ninjas have a whole melee skill set. In addition, warlocks dont have all the defensive and evasion skills that ninjas and oboro has, which pretty much makes then unkillable by most jobs when played right. 

4. We actually dont have a lot of renewal stats..atk and matk formulas are not renewal, neither is thanatos and def piercing damage. A lot of stats and mechanics were reverted to pre renewal of modified to behave closer to ore renewal.

5. Same as point 3, you cant have such high burst damage when the same job also has extensive evasive skills. The reduction of charm bonus is because we have boosted the base damage of most ninjas skills and with the default charm boost it was literally broken damage. This is unrelated to whether they should use their renewal skills in an arena where all other jobs cannot use their renewal skills.

6. Just this last 7 days there were 35 different ninjas with logged kills and deaths. Still the job has a k/d of 2.5 while most jobs have 1 or under 1. They also had the most kills per user and least deaths per user. So basically they had the best stats in all areas..its not just 3 of u that play ninja. This is data from pvp woe and bg.

7. Not going to comment on this as the removal of these jobs from 2nd job maps was solely my idea and not influenced by anybody. Its mind blowing that this wasnt suggested before or that i didnt disable them right after implementing them.

1. Thanks for clarifying this. I hope that ALL renewal skills are really disabled in HA.

 

2. I am referring to the general scenario. There are some jobs that have more or as much skill as oborro and kagerou. I am also refering to rebellions.

 

3. I agree WL cannot go physical but ninja physical not viable right now as mentioned earlier. For the evasive skill part, ninjas have low hp compared to other class. Having a high vit makes you thanable( hard to hit, but high) 

 

4. While renewal mechanics is not a lot, there are some that are implemented in HA. As you mentioned in #1 it must be NO RENEWAL formulas at all. Otherwise there would be some unfairness and imbalance.

 

5. Just like number 1, if the premise is HA= no renewal skills, then everything must be pre renewal. Including the items. Also, as stated, physical ninja is not viable. We cannot use the basis that ninja and gs are doing fine during pre renewal because their skill has been changed. Fuma shuriken is useless using renewal mechanic, which applies also in HA.

 

6. This one i have no data about it, but i think there could be a lot of several factors involved in this. Admittedly, ninja might really be OP, but as stated, I agree on balancing it, not killing the class. Just like the elemental damage nerf, i agree and dont complain about it. 

 

7. I hope this is true because there are a lot of suggestions in forum that are disguised as suggestions on other stuffs, but in the end, ends up discussing that ninja is OP. Actually this complains on ninja only happened the last 2-3 months, where nothing about ninja has changed during that time from january.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
20 minutes ago, Artemia said:

It's a fact that nerfing the 4 basic elements is relatively easy, but I very much disagree with this making the ninja useless. It doesn't do that AT ALL.

Nerfing all 4 basic elements does not come with no downsides. Generally, you can't resist everything. You are throwing away your resist to other elements by focusing on 3-4 elements. Say, neutral resist. Go ahead, use a GR scroll to nerf neutral, but you would be open to Ghost property damage (Napalm, Soul Strike, Immaterial Arrows to name a few).

It's the same idea with the role of Genetics in wars both before and after renewal AD patches. They used to deal minimal damage to GR users, but like I said, they'll be open to other properties.

Nerfing the entirety of magic Ninjas' skills would mean sudden death for most classes during heavy wars.

Oh, Wind Blade/Flaming Petals/Freezing Spear is dealing 1 damage. Wow, I just fully nerfed a magic Ninja. Time to die to Asura Strike/Sacrifice/Napalm Vulcan/Grimtooth/Full Buster--you get the point.

One last thing: it's always been my belief that 1v1 situations shouldn't be used as a scenario when discussing balance.

There are different ways on nerfing ninjas and mostly ninja users know it. Like I said, our enemy has already brought a couple of ninjas vs our team and ninja never became our problem.

 

But same with my reply to our admin. I agree nerfing the magic damage of ninja, but making physical ninja viable. However disabling the whole 2nd job skill set of ninja and gs, would probably kill the class. 

 

Please note that the situation of ninjas pre renewal is different from now. Fuma works in renewal way. There are also couple of new items and cards that would make the ninja damage not up to par compared with other class. 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Sounds like a lot of your reasoning for oboro/kagerou skills to be enabled is based on certain “ninja” only skills not being up to par with other jobs, so I would encourage you to make suggestions so that those skills can be revisited and revised as needed.

  • Upvote 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
7 minutes ago, HaZe said:

Sounds like a lot of your reasoning for oboro/kagerou skills to be enabled is based on certain “ninja” only skills not being up to par with other jobs, so I would encourage you to make suggestions so that those skills can be revisited and revised as needed.

I think the main essence of my suggestion are:

1. These skills are 2nd job skills not 3rd. 

2. On the negative side (fuuma shuriken), renewal mechanics is being applied to ninja, but the positive part(kagerou oborro skills) is not.

3. If HA should be pre renewal, then everything should be pre renewal, invluding formula, skills, items, and cards. Otherwise it would not be balanced.

 

In short, until we can make sure that HA is purely pre renewa and 3rds is the renewalish, the kagreou oborro rebellion skills should be enabled.

 

Again, I agree balancing ninja class by reducing magic damage and fixing physical damage. However I disagree killing the class.

Edited by ZeroGravity
  • Upvote 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
1 minute ago, ZeroGravity said:

There are different ways on nerfing ninjas and mostly ninja users know it. Like I said, our enemy has already brought a couple of ninjas vs our team and ninja never became our problem.

 

But same with my reply to our admin. I agree nerfing the magic damage of ninja, but making physical ninja viable. However disabling the whole 2nd job skill set of ninja and gs, would probably kill the class. 

 

Please note that the situation of ninjas pre renewal is different from now. Fuma works in renewal way. There are also couple of new items and cards that would make the ninja damage not up to par compared with other class. 

I'm neutral on the Ninja balancing, viability or idk discussion. The point of my entire post was to state that Ninjas are almost never entirely useless in any war scenario.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Create an account or sign in to comment

You need to be a member in order to leave a comment

Create an account

Sign up for a new account in our community. It's easy!

Register a new account

Sign in

Already have an account? Sign in here.

Sign In Now

×