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Xileria

Glorious Ring

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I suggest changing glorious ring to become unstackable to itself instead of making it stackable with asprika and e asprika. The reason for this is simple, the stacking of glorious ring with other elemental resistance isn't similar with the old pre renewal. It's no longer as powerful and with the existence of other gears, it is slowly losing its value.

In pre renewal elemental resistance has no cap.
In renewal basic elemental resistance is capped at 99%.
It means unlike in pre renewal you will still be hit by magic,  get a status and delayed by it. You can be un cloaked by heavens drive etc.
It also mean that regardless of your excess resistance you won't get healed by elemental damage anymore.

Those are things that are way too op back in pre renewal. Those are huge factors before which made the ban on glorious ring understandable. Though there are ways plenty of ways to counter magic I don't believe that glorious ring should be kept unstackable to some garments anymore. If anything, in my opinion it should be unstackable to itself instead.

The glorious ring is non slotted. Even warlocks has access to elemental resistance orbs that can be enchanted and has a slot, they even have access to shoes that gives a very high amount of resistance.

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With the changes to the damage tables in renewal, this isn't really a bad suggestion. Here are a few points to consider (some of them are already in main post):

1. Along with the introduction of renewal items, reaching high resistances on the four basic elements is no longer a huge difficulty, and glorious rings do not even stack with asprika.
A very basic setup: asprika (30%) + undead scroll (20%) + s.tunic & scuba mask w/ leaf cat (20%) + bop (10%) = 80% basic element resistance. From there, you can opt for a valkyrie shield for the 20% to fire+water, and utilize proof potions for either wind or earth. In this case:
Fire= 100%
Water= 100%
Wind= 80% (+20% from proof potion, -15% to earth)
Earth= 80% (+20% from proof potion -15% to fire)

Warlocks can even utilize elemental orbs and shoes from mora which gives 15% resistance to one element, which would mean they could reach high resistances very easily even without scuba mask+leaf cat.

There's also holy elemental scrolls to consider. They don't stack, but they do provide even more %.

2. Let's be real: most offensive skills to watch out for do not exactly pertain to the basic elements, which is why slotted accessories are extremely vital--- gem of pneuma/safety wall is existing proof. Examples: napalm vulcan (ghost), GX/SN on enchant poison... well, basically physical skills w/ cursed water

Some new additions such as the faceworm accessory set are also offensive options, not even including the standard scaraba/gold scaraba cards as an alternative. Opting for glorious rings puts you at a somewhat sturdier bridge towards basic element resistance, but you would be sacrificing versatility.

3. The change isn't necessarily just making grings stack with asprika; having them just be un-stackable with one another is enough. That is to say, you can chose to wear asprika+1gring, but never 2grings at the same time at any given moment.

4. I believe people in pre-renewal went for 100% and above resistances so that they could either leave some status resistances behind (e.g. stun resistance because meteor storm), or they could simply walk over an elemental aoe and heal up crazy. With how elemental resistance is capped at 99%, this is no longer possible.

5. Personally, it's a simple band-aid fix to the damage meta.

Thread's very open for discussion. please discuss

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This suggestion is good. It raised valid concerns. However, I think I have to disagree with this since it would adversely affect magic classes, which could render them useless in wars. It must be noted that magic types are easily nerfed by elemental resist, which does not apply to physical class. Generally, in wars, it is easier to deal with magic damage than physical. So, if we allow glorious rings to stack with asprika, magic classes are greatly affected, but not physical. It might cause an imbalance.

 

Currently, despite the fact that glorious rings doesn’t stack with asprika, it is quite easy to nerf magic classes using elemental resist. As stated above, nerfing the 4 basic elements is achievable even without the glorious rings stacking with asprika. Allowing glorious rings to stack with asprika would make it easier to nerf magic users, which could render them useless in wars.

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7 hours ago, ZeroGravity said:

This suggestion is good. It raised valid concerns. However, I think I have to disagree with this since it would adversely affect magic classes, which could render them useless in wars. It must be noted that magic types are easily nerfed by elemental resist, which does not apply to physical class. Generally, in wars, it is easier to deal with magic damage than physical. So, if we allow glorious rings to stack with asprika, magic classes are greatly affected, but not physical. It might cause an imbalance.

 

Currently, despite the fact that glorious rings doesn’t stack with asprika, it is quite easy to nerf magic classes using elemental resist. As stated above, nerfing the 4 basic elements is achievable even without the glorious rings stacking with asprika. Allowing glorious rings to stack with asprika would make it easier to nerf magic users, which could render them useless in wars.

Especially ninja would greatly affect by this .. 😏

 

Aesprika + glorious + undead scroll + valkyrie shield + spiritual tunic + blessing poring + poseidon

Full resist fire 

water -98%

Wind -98% 

Earth  -90%

If this really happen..must be great for us..

Edited by NewbieGuys

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10 minutes ago, NewbieGuys said:

Especially ninja would greatly affect by this .. 😏

 

Aesprika + glorious + undead scroll + valkyrie shield + spiritual tunic + poring ring + poseidon

Full resist fire 

water -98%

Wind -98% 

Earth  -90%

If this really happen..must be great for us..

Yes. I think ninja would be greatly affected too. You are right, it is close to fully nerfing all 4 basic elements. This is why I think it would cause imbalance. Basically magic ninjas would be useless and WL’s only relevant skill would be napalm which can also be easily countered by maya.

 

Currently, the meta heavily favors physical jobs already. By further nerfing magic classes, there would be a huge imbalance in favor of physical classes and against magic.

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The idea is this: you have almost no need to include grings into your equipment set to achieve a massive resistance% to the basic elements.

What should be looked into is the idea that using a gring to "ease up" the nerf process also uses up a much valuable accessory slot. Sure, you would have an easier time reaching high (or even capped) resistance on basic elements, but that means the accessory slot that could have been a gemofsw/pneuma (or other gems of power), faceworm/darkfaceworm, judicious--- essentially, is the resistance switch a good trade-off for a lack in offensive capability, or a different defense category?

Here's another argument that could be brought up: we can just switch to the gring and then to the different accessory later.

1. Some builds consist of an accessory card combo (faceworm+dark faceworm, hurt mind+kind heart), and would lose its bonus effect once removed. This would mean that while you are switched to a gring, you lose these bonus effects.

2. The loss of effects do not only apply to card combos, but to standalone cards as well. When under siege by a magic class, you decided to go for a gring switch. You lose the following options: gopneuma against warlock's magic crasher, gosw against sorcs utilizing godivest, gem of power for your offensive skill's damage, raw offensive boost from dark faceworm card, other utility-based gems of power such as gosight, slot for medal of honor/forging accessory/specialist glove, unique accessories such as evil glove.

TL;DR you can't have both at an instance

Lastly, for the argument of balancing, there is no "favor" in the damage numbers between physical and magic classes.

1. Both sides have boosted raw damage capabilities.
2. Both have access to offensive skills that utilize elements outside the basic four.
Magic: napalm vulcan, soul expansion, soul strike -- while there aren't as many of these compared to the diverse physical skills, they have a massive edge: the trait to ignore defensive skills (pneuma+safety wall) and flee. also MDEF is completely useless
Physical: almost every offensive physical skills convertible with cursed water, aspersio scroll, or enchant poison (also applicable to party members), ranged arrow/ammo classes; along with mild wind for taekwon kid path
Bonus #: they are all ridiculously good as dps and are relatively not-so-squishy, especially with the recent balancing changes (e.g. one-handed katars)
 

Let's go ahead and take the "disabled" ninjas into the equation, even though I'm quite sure this was already discussed in some other thread. Let's assume for a moment that charms weren't disabled, and some people are still jumping ship to ninjas.

...but it turns out I'm quite lazy, so let me just quote something instead. I made this reply during the oboro, kagerou, & rebellion skills discussion regarding 2nd job arenas:

On 7/17/2019 at 12:33 AM, Artemia said:

It's a fact that nerfing the 4 basic elements is relatively easy, but I very much disagree with this making the ninja useless. It doesn't do that AT ALL.

Nerfing all 4 basic elements does not come with no downsides. Generally, you can't resist everything. You are throwing away your resist to other elements by focusing on 3-4 elements. Say, neutral resist. Go ahead, use a GR scroll to nerf neutral, but you would be open to Ghost property damage (Napalm, Soul Strike, Immaterial Arrows to name a few).

It's the same idea with the role of Genetics in wars both before and after renewal AD patches. They used to deal minimal damage to GR users, but like I said, they'll be open to other properties.

Nerfing the entirety of magic Ninjas' skills would mean sudden death for most classes during heavy wars.

Oh, Wind Blade/Flaming Petals/Freezing Spear is dealing 1 damage. Wow, I just fully nerfed a magic Ninja. Time to die to Asura Strike/Sacrifice/Napalm Vulcan/Grimtooth/Full Buster--you get the point.

One last thing: it's always been my belief that 1v1 situations shouldn't be used as a scenario when discussing balance.

--before any more arguments concerning its effects on 1v1 situations come up, here's even more proof made in a RS balancing thread:

On 11/29/2017 at 4:54 AM, HaZe said:

In my opinion, that's not what balance is and balance is not achieved via 1vs1 battles either.

 

There are classes that are supposed to completely nerf and counter other classes, such as Champions > Snipers in many ways when used properly. The lines may blur a  bit in a high rate with 3rd jobs but the concept is still there.

And lastly (for real this time), reduction of prices in other items aren't always necessarily detrimental. for one, it makes the item a little bit more accessible to newer players.

But I'm very much open to other unmentioned arguments. I'll gladly recede if proven wrong.

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19 minutes ago, ZeroGravity said:

This suggestion is good. It raised valid concerns. However, I think I have to disagree with this since it would adversely affect magic classes, which could render them useless in wars. It must be noted that magic types are easily nerfed by elemental resist, which does not apply to physical class. Generally, in wars, it is easier to deal with magic damage than physical. So, if we allow glorious rings to stack with asprika, magic classes are greatly affected, but not physical. It might cause an imbalance.

 

Currently, despite the fact that glorious rings doesn’t stack with asprika, it is quite easy to nerf magic classes using elemental resist. As stated above, nerfing the 4 basic elements is achievable even without the glorious rings stacking with asprika. Allowing glorious rings to stack with asprika would make it easier to nerf magic users, which could render them useless in wars.

I don't know how a single glorious ring can do to make such a huge impact.

Combat Asprika has resistance to all elements at 10% with 2 glorious ring you got 30% resistance to 4 basic elements and that combat asprika can be combined with cautious howard  for as much as additional 10% resistance. A total of 40% resistance to 4 elements with extra benefits of reducing your def and increasing your resistance to long range attack . How is that any better with a non slotted asprika + 1 glorious ring. That gives 40% resistance too. Basically it's just a cheaper alternative.

Look carefully the only thing a single glorious ring could do is to add 10% elemental resistance on 4 elements. In fact making the ring unstackable will ruin the high resistance builds tht uses 2 rings.  Even if this is done in pre renewal where the glorious ring can't be stacked together it will make the ring lose quite some value because it's only powerful back then due to the fact that you can get 20% resistance to 4 elements by wearing two of them.

The full 4 elemental resistance is powerful before because it allow players to cloak and walk on elemental AOE such as Lord of Vermillion, Storm Gust and Heaven's drive even in 3rd it's pretty powerful. But it's no longer the case now because of elemental cap.

Warlock has napalm, their AOE will still hit you and inflict you with statuses, Sorc has dispel and players need buffs to keep their elemental resistances at peak, Undead scroll can be dispelled same as elemental potion. High resistance doesn't come without cost, if anything a full resistance to 4 elements comes with a huge cost that isn't even worth it atm.

Magic is definitely easy to counter, but that is only if you wanted to counter magic alone. Anyone can say in paper that it's easy to counter a ninja. Then why was the class skill nerfed? Because not everything good in paper can be easily executed in pvp.

Countering an element that can nuke you in few seconds cost a lot, and just because you have high resistance doesnt' mean you got things in the bag. Because resistance is normally only good in 1 thing and that is tanking and you'll still die just by being tanky, the only difference is because it takes time to kill you. You can't kill a player by just tanking even by switching on a single reflect shield make your build extremely vulnerable. Not to mention how a lot of class has access to so many elements right now.

The funny thing is because you guys are making it sound like the resistance build is OP because you can't kill it. As if it can kill you instead. That's very funny, you guys should try a full resistance build one time so you'll know how obsolete it is right now.

A GX with full earth resistance back in pre renewal could do a lot in PVP, now even if you make a full earth resist GX it's useless because it will still be easy to uncloak them.  Most of you do not understand the impact of the changes in elemental cap because most of you never experienced it before. It's one of the thing that greatly shift the class balance in our server eversince we switch to renewal. The WoE pre cast domination by defending guild is just one of it's obvious result.

Resistance is simply a damage reduction now. A single glorious ring stacking with asprika won't make much change.


 

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33 minutes ago, Xileria said:

I don't know how a single glorious ring can do to make such a huge impact.

Combat Asprika has resistance to all elements at 10% with 2 glorious ring you got 30% resistance to 4 basic elements and that combat asprika can be combined with cautious howard  for as much as additional 10% resistance. A total of 40% resistance to 4 elements with extra benefits of reducing your def and increasing your resistance to long range attack . How is that any better with a non slotted asprika + 1 glorious ring. That gives 40% resistance too. Basically it's just a cheaper alternative.

Look carefully the only thing a single glorious ring could do is to add 10% elemental resistance on 4 elements. In fact making the ring unstackable will ruin the high resistance builds tht uses 2 rings.  Even if this is done in pre renewal where the glorious ring can't be stacked together it will make the ring lose quite some value because it's only powerful back then due to the fact that you can get 20% resistance to 4 elements by wearing two of them.

The full 4 elemental resistance is powerful before because it allow players to cloak and walk on elemental AOE such as Lord of Vermillion, Storm Gust and Heaven's drive even in 3rd it's pretty powerful. But it's no longer the case now because of elemental cap.

Warlock has napalm, their AOE will still hit you and inflict you with statuses, Sorc has dispel and players need buffs to keep their elemental resistances at peak, Undead scroll can be dispelled same as elemental potion. High resistance doesn't come without cost, if anything a full resistance to 4 elements comes with a huge cost that isn't even worth it atm.

Magic is definitely easy to counter, but that is only if you wanted to counter magic alone. Anyone can say in paper that it's easy to counter a ninja. Then why was the class skill nerfed? Because not everything good in paper can be easily executed in pvp.

Countering an element that can nuke you in few seconds cost a lot, and just because you have high resistance doesnt' mean you got things in the bag. Because resistance is normally only good in 1 thing and that is tanking and you'll still die just by being tanky, the only difference is because it takes time to kill you. You can't kill a player by just tanking even by switching on a single reflect shield make your build extremely vulnerable. Not to mention how a lot of class has access to so many elements right now.

The funny thing is because you guys are making it sound like the resistance build is OP because you can't kill it. As if it can kill you instead. That's very funny, you guys should try a full resistance build one time so you'll know how obsolete it is right now.

A GX with full earth resistance back in pre renewal could do a lot in PVP, now even if you make a full earth resist GX it's useless because it will still be easy to uncloak them.  Most of you do not understand the impact of the changes in elemental cap because most of you never experienced it before. It's one of the thing that greatly shift the class balance in our server eversince we switch to renewal. The WoE pre cast domination by defending guild is just one of it's obvious result.

Resistance is simply a damage reduction now. A single glorious ring stacking with asprika won't make much change.


 

Im agree on you actually..i dont care about combat asprika price go down because of this..since its over price right now..one more thing..if this really happen..its actually newbie friendly..bcause they cant affod combat aesprika to go full resist..but if aesprika and glorious ring can stack together..this greatly will help them to survive in pvp..since its cheap and easy build..

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^Yes. Also it's just one glorious ring stacking with asprika. Having them stack with each other and asprika would mean a total of 50% basic resistance, which is a teeny-bit overtuning.

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4 hours ago, Xileria said:

I don't know how a single glorious ring can do to make such a huge impact.

Combat Asprika has resistance to all elements at 10% with 2 glorious ring you got 30% resistance to 4 basic elements and that combat asprika can be combined with cautious howard  for as much as additional 10% resistance. A total of 40% resistance to 4 elements with extra benefits of reducing your def and increasing your resistance to long range attack . How is that any better with a non slotted asprika + 1 glorious ring. That gives 40% resistance too. Basically it's just a cheaper alternative.

Look carefully the only thing a single glorious ring could do is to add 10% elemental resistance on 4 elements. In fact making the ring unstackable will ruin the high resistance builds tht uses 2 rings.  Even if this is done in pre renewal where the glorious ring can't be stacked together it will make the ring lose quite some value because it's only powerful back then due to the fact that you can get 20% resistance to 4 elements by wearing two of them.

The full 4 elemental resistance is powerful before because it allow players to cloak and walk on elemental AOE such as Lord of Vermillion, Storm Gust and Heaven's drive even in 3rd it's pretty powerful. But it's no longer the case now because of elemental cap.

Warlock has napalm, their AOE will still hit you and inflict you with statuses, Sorc has dispel and players need buffs to keep their elemental resistances at peak, Undead scroll can be dispelled same as elemental potion. High resistance doesn't come without cost, if anything a full resistance to 4 elements comes with a huge cost that isn't even worth it atm.

Magic is definitely easy to counter, but that is only if you wanted to counter magic alone. Anyone can say in paper that it's easy to counter a ninja. Then why was the class skill nerfed? Because not everything good in paper can be easily executed in pvp.

Countering an element that can nuke you in few seconds cost a lot, and just because you have high resistance doesnt' mean you got things in the bag. Because resistance is normally only good in 1 thing and that is tanking and you'll still die just by being tanky, the only difference is because it takes time to kill you. You can't kill a player by just tanking even by switching on a single reflect shield make your build extremely vulnerable. Not to mention how a lot of class has access to so many elements right now.

The funny thing is because you guys are making it sound like the resistance build is OP because you can't kill it. As if it can kill you instead. That's very funny, you guys should try a full resistance build one time so you'll know how obsolete it is right now.

A GX with full earth resistance back in pre renewal could do a lot in PVP, now even if you make a full earth resist GX it's useless because it will still be easy to uncloak them.  Most of you do not understand the impact of the changes in elemental cap because most of you never experienced it before. It's one of the thing that greatly shift the class balance in our server eversince we switch to renewal. The WoE pre cast domination by defending guild is just one of it's obvious result.

Resistance is simply a damage reduction now. A single glorious ring stacking with asprika won't make much change.


 

10% resist to 4 basic elements is huge and in fact it has an impact. In fact, this is a reason why BOP is being used, because it has an impact. And I can also presume that this suggestion is being made because it has an impact.

 

For comprison with CA, I don’t think we have to discuss it in detail, but here’s things you need to consider. CA is an expensive and hard to get item so it is reasonable if it has some advantage over asprika, which is easy to get. Second, you are talking about CA with cautious with 2 glorious rings to get 40% on basic elements. But you forgot to take into consideration that asprika has 30% resist on ALL elements. CA, even with cautious only has 20%. Also you are talkinng about 2 glorious rings meaning you sacrificed 2 accessories and 2 cards. Comparing it to the asprika alternative, which can achieve better results just by having 1 glorious ring. So in essence what you are asking for is asprika to be better than an expensive CA. So why would people try to achieve a CA, when the cheaper alternative is better?

 

About WL and Profs, I already mentioned that it is easy to nerf magic classes, so making it easier would render those classes useless. As I have stated, the current classes that are favored by the meta are physical classes, so why make it harder for magic classes?

 

About ninja, even admin himself stated that ninjas are currently bad. But like you said, not everything could be executed easily. So I think the problem is on those executing it. Tbh, ninja was nerfed because it has good k/d and a lot of people from one side kept complaining about ninjas. However, if you check those ninjas, they belong to one alliance. Have you ever seen us complain about ninja? Our enemy also brought some ninjas, but we never complained. I think the nerf on ninja is irrelevant on this topic, but since you mentioned it, I had to explain it.

 

I think a lot of us have tried that full elemental resist build. In fact that is the reason we were able to discuss it here. Based on my personal experience, it still works, but is dependent on how you utilize it. I would not go into details on how to use it, but I am doing it on my ranger, gs, wl, and ninja.

 

About how elemental system works, yes there were significant effects. However that is part of the shift to renewal. We cannot do anything about it. But again, why make changes unfavorable to magic classes, when in the first place, physical classes are doing better in pvp? 

 

About not having a big change, i disagree with this for reasons above. There are changes both in pvp and economically. As I have said, you suggestion is essentially making asprika with glorious ring better than CA with glorious ring. Again, CA is hard to get then you need to +10 it to get full effects of cautious howard. This seems unreasonable to me.

 

Also even among vets that has +10 CA, most still opts for asprika. In fact those well known in pvp in this server uses asprika if you ask them. Im not a vet, but me myself prefer asprika on more occassions than CA.

 

Btw, although I have magic classes like WL and ninja, I hope you don’t misinterpret that I am just being biased. Please do note that I currently main ranger and GS too. In fact I use ranger and GS more than my WL and ninja.

Edited by ZeroGravity

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Rofl not gonna quote you since it's too long but I think you completely miss the point.

Even if asprika got 30% resistance to all elements and CA can only max 20% on all elements. A difference of 10% resistance on other element is very funny to say it could greatly impact the game. I'll say, if it could make player reach 90% easily on all elements then maybe it would. But it's still funny for me considering I know a lot of vets who can build a 90-95% resistance on demi human alone and they still won't do it because they know how useless the build is in PVP. Why would someone used a default 90% demi human build when it means that he'll be sitting duck while on that build. Even the tankers don't necessarily choose a high demi human resist because it's simply difficult to fight back with such a build where you need to sacrifice a lot of your offensive ability.

Let me give you what so nice in paper but doesn't work that easily in PVP.

Why don't you build right now an SN with 90% resistance on most elements? I'll tell you how easily it is possible for them, they can't wear glorious ring but they have access to the best resistance shield in the server. With just asprika and that shield they got 50% on all elements. With a undead elemental scroll they got 70% on 4 basic elements, add blessing of poring and that's 80% on 4 elements. No make it 5 elements because they have faith skill that gives 50% resistance to holy element which make them instantly have 100% resistance on holy. By using shadow armor now they can have 6 elements resistance. And again that is on top of having as much as 65% demi human resistance because they can have hades card on shield as well as 35% demi human reduction headgear while having those stuffs.

With so many alternative headgear they can easily reach 99% on those 4 basic elements giving them a total of upto 6 elemental resistance. Just how OP novices are right?

I hope you realize how easy it is to write things as how they are supposed to work in paper, but that's the reality, you can worry how  much that 10% resistance could do to classes that need to sacrifice 1 accessory slot for it. Losing either a defensive card or even an offensive one.

You talk like 10% matter the way you compute it in your head but even if glorious ring become available to combine with asprika i'll bet you and other vets won't use it either, basically because it won't be worth as sacrifice for your current builds and there's a lot of better accessories that players can utilize.

To be honest I have no plan to use glorious ring myself, and as I have mention the only reason I believe it should be allowed is because it's pointless to keep it unstackable with asprika and elite asprika.

The glorious ring wasn't created to be combined alone with combat asprika, neither with other garments. It's like saying that if time comes and combat asprika become easier to obtain it should be added in the list of non combinable with glorious rings. Which is again pointless, because that build doesn't make it extremely OP either.

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First things first: actually, SN can use glorious rings. Let's discuss this SN issue in detail.

As stated above, it is so easy for SN to reach the cap that it's funny. Let's gear a new super novice for pvp.

-Asprika gives 30% resistance to all elements.
-Undead scrolls give 20% resistance to basic four.
-Stupid novice shield gives 20% resistance to all elements except neutral. Yes, it also reduces shadow property.
At this point, our cute little novice has 70% resistance to basic four. This is the basic build. Let's keep going.
-Expansion skill Faith gives flat 50% resistance to holy property. SN is basically immune to all holy property attacks.
-Blessing of Porings gives 10% resistance to basic four.
-A Spiritual Tunic and a scuba mask slotted with leaf cat gives 20% resistance to all elements except neutral.
-We consume a shadow armor scroll as a finishing touch.
Lo and behold, our novice has a grand total of 99% immunity on the following elements: Fire, Water, Wind, Earth, Holy, and Shadow.

But let's not forget the other elements just yet.

How much ghost resistance does our novice have? 70%. The same percentages also apply to Poison and Undead, so it is also at 70%.
Let's not forget that we still have other options to include. First off: standard 65% demi-human resist, then SN's elite dagger which gives 12% extra demi-human resist.
Now we are at 77% demi-human resist. Then, we include a gohc and two judicious cards, and now we have a total of 15% long-range damage resist.

Here's the summary:
Fire: 99%
Water: 99%
Wind: 99%
Earth: 99%
Holy: 99%
Shadow: 99%
Ghost, Poison, Undead: 70%
Neutral: 30%
Demi-human: 77%
Long-range: 15%

Now let's go ahead and use a +8-10CA w/ cautious and 2x grings for the sake of the grings argument. Throw away the bop because we just got an extra 10% basic resist and -10% softdef. Now you can use something like Rinnegan or heck, antique smoking pipe for that 2% demi-human resistance.

One more funny thing to add: ditch the common cards! Instead of ACD reduction cards or 2 gemini-s58, why not slot in 2 permeter cards for a total of 30% bonus resistance against shadow and undead property attacks? Guess what, this novice is immune to 7 elements out of 10 (99%), and is greatly resistant against 2 out of 3 (70%). The huge window is literally neutral alone (30%)... plus all the other resistances we are able to stack.

We still aren't taking into consideration that SN has access to numerous defensive skills such as SW and pneuma, and buffs such as Attention Concentrate, Blessing, Increase Agi, Gloria. Not to mention it also has access to debuffing skills such as quagmire, decrease agi, stone curse, jupitel thunder, sight+sightrasher-- and as well as disengage with hiding+tunnel. Do you even need a glorious ring any more?

Hasn't our novice grown so much--- from destitute garbage to a tiny but formidable fortress?
Take a look at this simple SN build; it looks SO good, right?

Then why is nobody using it? Why are there only like 2-4 active SN players in the entire pvp scene when it seems so ridiculously strong with such a relatively simple build?

As a SN player myself, whenever I would build my SN to its full defensive capabilities for attacking a woe castle, I would NEVER use a glorious ring to stack with asprika. It's completely detrimental to my build, when I could have used some useful %long-range resist or even a gopneuma for loki's veil. Also, op house of trial artifacts.

I hope I got at least part of my point across.

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1 hour ago, Artemia said:

First things first: actually, SN can use glorious rings. Let's discuss this SN issue in detail.

As stated above, it is so easy for SN to reach the cap that it's funny. Let's gear a new super novice for pvp.

-Asprika gives 30% resistance to all elements.
-Undead scrolls give 20% resistance to basic four.
-Stupid novice shield gives 20% resistance to all elements except neutral. Yes, it also reduces shadow property.
At this point, our cute little novice has 70% resistance to basic four. This is the basic build. Let's keep going.
-Expansion skill Faith gives flat 50% resistance to holy property. SN is basically immune to all holy property attacks.
-Blessing of Porings gives 10% resistance to basic four.
-A Spiritual Tunic and a scuba mask slotted with leaf cat gives 20% resistance to all elements except neutral.
-We consume a shadow armor scroll as a finishing touch.
Lo and behold, our novice has a grand total of 99% immunity on the following elements: Fire, Water, Wind, Earth, Holy, and Shadow.

But let's not forget the other elements just yet.

How much ghost resistance does our novice have? 70%. The same percentages also apply to Poison and Undead, so it is also at 70%.
Let's not forget that we still have other options to include. First off: standard 65% demi-human resist, then SN's elite dagger which gives 12% extra demi-human resist.
Now we are at 77% demi-human resist. Then, we include a gohc and two judicious cards, and now we have a total of 15% long-range damage resist.

Here's the summary:
Fire: 99%
Water: 99%
Wind: 99%
Earth: 99%
Holy: 99%
Shadow: 99%
Ghost, Poison, Undead: 70%
Neutral: 30%
Demi-human: 77%
Long-range: 15%

Now let's go ahead and use a +8-10CA w/ cautious and 2x grings for the sake of the grings argument. Throw away the bop because we just got an extra 10% basic resist and -10% softdef. Now you can use something like Rinnegan or heck, antique smoking pipe for that 2% demi-human resistance.

One more funny thing to add: ditch the common cards! Instead of ACD reduction cards or 2 gemini-s58, why not slot in 2 permeter cards for a total of 30% bonus resistance against shadow and undead property attacks? Guess what, this novice is immune to 7 elements out of 10 (99%), and is greatly resistant against 2 out of 3 (70%). The huge window is literally neutral alone (30%)... plus all the other resistances we are able to stack.

We still aren't taking into consideration that SN has access to numerous defensive skills such as SW and pneuma, and buffs such as Attention Concentrate, Blessing, Increase Agi, Gloria. Not to mention it also has access to debuffing skills such as quagmire, decrease agi, stone curse, jupitel thunder, sight+sightrasher-- and as well as disengage with hiding+tunnel. Do you even need a glorious ring any more?

Hasn't our novice grown so much--- from destitute garbage to a tiny but formidable fortress?
Take a look at this simple SN build; it looks SO good, right?

Then why is nobody using it? Why are there only like 2-4 active SN players in the entire pvp scene when it seems so ridiculously strong with such a relatively simple build?

As a SN player myself, whenever I would build my SN to its full defensive capabilities for attacking a woe castle, I would NEVER use a glorious ring to stack with asprika. It's completely detrimental to my build, when I could have used some useful %long-range resist or even a gopneuma for loki's veil. Also, op house of trial artifacts.

I hope I got at least part of my point across.

i miss you, idiot.

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here are my understanding of xileria’s reply:

1. 10% doesn’t have a great impact

2. Something strong on paper does not mean it is strong in reality. Tanky build is not being used by vets.

3. The tradeoff for glorious rings is too huge.

4. This suggestion is being made just because making glorious rings unstackable is pointless.

 

Please do correct me if I miss out an important point or I misunderstood something.

 

So here are my replies:

1. Like I said 10% has a huge impact. First, it has a similar effect of BOP. I doubt anyone would say BOP doesnt have an impact in pvp. Second, magic classes mainly rely on those basic 4 elements. As stated by you, even without the change, full resist is achievable. So why is there a need to change it? Finally, we are taking about 10% as an overall effect. Yes, on paper 10% of 100k is just 10K. However, if you combine this with other resist, 90-99% would be easily achievable which would be detrimental to magic users. You have to consider asprika with it. So the overall effect of 40% resist is not small. It could spell the difference of using BoP or No. It could be a determining factor which elemental resist potion to use, and etc.

 

2. Since you are using SN as an example, even based on statistics, HaZe said that SNs are currently doing well. And these SNs I know are really good players. In fact, one of the best SNs in game is really tanky that is why he maintains such a good k/d. I also think you missed the point of switching. But I do think this is understandable since only a few can really utilize good nerfing techniques with good damage output. So, in my opinion, something strong on paper is not always good, but it can also be dependent on the player who executes it.

 

3. About trading off, when you used CA as an example, you are talking about 2 glorious rings to achieve the 40% resist. So you traded off 2 accessories and 2 cards. With asprika, you just need 1 glorious ring so just 1 trade off. And like I said, if we allow this, the option of asprika plus glorious ring (30% all elements+10% on 4 elements) would be better than ca with cautious +10 plus glorious ring (20% all elements+10% on 4 elements+ 10% long range redux and some defense redux-small). If you look at those stats, the first option is definitely better, which again is unreasonable since CA should definitely be better even by a bit.

 

4. The claim that it is pointless is still unsupported. The basis that the way elemental resist works before is not sufficient to conclude that it is pointless. Besides the condition of being pointless can be judged only by the admin, so I would leave this aspect to him.

 

So, in conclusion, while I respect your opinion, I humbly disagree with it for reasons stated above. 

Edited by ZeroGravity

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4 hours ago, Artemia said:

First things first: actually, SN can use glorious rings. Let's discuss this SN issue in detail.

As stated above, it is so easy for SN to reach the cap that it's funny. Let's gear a new super novice for pvp.

-Asprika gives 30% resistance to all elements.
-Undead scrolls give 20% resistance to basic four.
-Stupid novice shield gives 20% resistance to all elements except neutral. Yes, it also reduces shadow property.
At this point, our cute little novice has 70% resistance to basic four. This is the basic build. Let's keep going.
-Expansion skill Faith gives flat 50% resistance to holy property. SN is basically immune to all holy property attacks.
-Blessing of Porings gives 10% resistance to basic four.
-A Spiritual Tunic and a scuba mask slotted with leaf cat gives 20% resistance to all elements except neutral.
-We consume a shadow armor scroll as a finishing touch.
Lo and behold, our novice has a grand total of 99% immunity on the following elements: Fire, Water, Wind, Earth, Holy, and Shadow.

But let's not forget the other elements just yet.

How much ghost resistance does our novice have? 70%. The same percentages also apply to Poison and Undead, so it is also at 70%.
Let's not forget that we still have other options to include. First off: standard 65% demi-human resist, then SN's elite dagger which gives 12% extra demi-human resist.
Now we are at 77% demi-human resist. Then, we include a gohc and two judicious cards, and now we have a total of 15% long-range damage resist.

Here's the summary:
Fire: 99%
Water: 99%
Wind: 99%
Earth: 99%
Holy: 99%
Shadow: 99%
Ghost, Poison, Undead: 70%
Neutral: 30%
Demi-human: 77%
Long-range: 15%

Now let's go ahead and use a +8-10CA w/ cautious and 2x grings for the sake of the grings argument. Throw away the bop because we just got an extra 10% basic resist and -10% softdef. Now you can use something like Rinnegan or heck, antique smoking pipe for that 2% demi-human resistance.

One more funny thing to add: ditch the common cards! Instead of ACD reduction cards or 2 gemini-s58, why not slot in 2 permeter cards for a total of 30% bonus resistance against shadow and undead property attacks? Guess what, this novice is immune to 7 elements out of 10 (99%), and is greatly resistant against 2 out of 3 (70%). The huge window is literally neutral alone (30%)... plus all the other resistances we are able to stack.

We still aren't taking into consideration that SN has access to numerous defensive skills such as SW and pneuma, and buffs such as Attention Concentrate, Blessing, Increase Agi, Gloria. Not to mention it also has access to debuffing skills such as quagmire, decrease agi, stone curse, jupitel thunder, sight+sightrasher-- and as well as disengage with hiding+tunnel. Do you even need a glorious ring any more?

Hasn't our novice grown so much--- from destitute garbage to a tiny but formidable fortress?
Take a look at this simple SN build; it looks SO good, right?

Then why is nobody using it? Why are there only like 2-4 active SN players in the entire pvp scene when it seems so ridiculously strong with such a relatively simple build?

As a SN player myself, whenever I would build my SN to its full defensive capabilities for attacking a woe castle, I would NEVER use a glorious ring to stack with asprika. It's completely detrimental to my build, when I could have used some useful %long-range resist or even a gopneuma for loki's veil. Also, op house of trial artifacts.

I hope I got at least part of my point across.

I think what is misinterpreted in my replies is that you guys think I don't agree with the suggestion because I think the build is OP. I have to make it clear that granting this suggestion would be detrimental to magic classes, but little to no effect on physical. I don't think a full resist build is OP. However, it is still my position that this suggestion could cause imbalance on magic classes.

 

So while I agree that this build is not OP, I still think the build is good. As I have mentioned in my reply to Xileria, there are a few good SNs who utilizes this build. That doesn't mean that they are on permanent resist build since they are good at switching. But, resist build, although not as exaggerated as the one you guys pointed out, is useful. So what am i trying to say? When you go full resist build, I do agree that there are important trade offs and sacrifices being made. However, you have to note that vs magic users, elemental resist on 4 basic elements is a big thing compared to physical jobs. This is the reason why I disagree with this. Also, again, as I have pointed out, this suggestion would basically make asprika almost always a better choice over CA based on the example I gave.

 

For the part about why is there 2-4 SNs that are active in PVP. I think I could say the same with ninja. But that doesn't mean ninja is a bad character. Also, even HaZe said, SNs has good K/D. So, I think SNs are good or at least decent. It's just that it is not an easy class to use. In fact my own SN has a good K/D ratio. I just don't use it a lot.

Edited by ZeroGravity

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No, I understand that you are against this because of the nerf towards all magic classes, since in your eyes, it would have no effect on physical classes.

It's not that I was ignoring the fact that physical skills aren't locked to the basic four, making them clearly advantageous. It's true: wearing grings against a GX isn't the same as wearing one against a WL. You clearly have a bigger defensive bonus on the latter.

The point I was trying to make is that choosing to use up a slot even for something like a glorious ring opens you up to other shortcomings.

In wars, if you decide to use up a slot for a gring against a rampaging WL, you lose out on the auto-cast pneuma that would possibly save you from a FA onslaught, or grimtooth. It's not like this option is only for tanks; almost every character can utilize this change.

Switching to grings opens up opportunities for a different kind of enemy. So let's take your opinion into account: resisting the basic four is massive against magic unlike physical. My answer: if you take that slot away, either you are more open to other forms of offense, or your offensive power is diminished. Grings certainly boosts your defensive capabilities, but in exchange for a card slot and an entire accessory.

Let me state it again.
Changing into a gring:
1. Magic classes without ghost property will ignore you, while physical classes can usually ignore this switch.
2. You either have no defensive utility against these physical classes, or your damage to take them out is reduced.

I'm looking at this issue in the eyes of the defenders, and your formulations are based on the eyes of the magic class, which isn't inherently wrong. We're both in agreement that this build is in no way OP, but you believe it's an unnecessary nerf towards all magic classes. --this is kind of understandable, considering looking at the raw percentages literally spell magic classes occasionally becoming weaker.

If that's the case, here's why the nerf on paper isn't applicable: these strong magic classes "forcing" people to switch to a gring weakens them against their physical allies. I've said this so many times in this post, but I really have to. The 10% certainly looks useful, but just think about the points above. It's literally the same idea that no matter how low the damage is to a player, you are still being viable. Your magic skills do 1 damage on everyone? That means they have exposed themselves to physical classes. 1v1 scenarios aren't always good grounds for balance.

Really, the reason why I believe this isn't exactly a huge nerf for magic classes is because it isn't a flat, consistent damage reduction like a direct nerf to a magical skill. It's a switching option that holds disadvantages. Though you do have a point that it isn't affecting physical attackers, try to see the suggestion in a different light just for consideration. If ever you still think otherwise, then I'll respect your opinion and accept it as is.

Also, I never said SN was terrible. Fact is, builds that look good on paper don't always live up to expectations.

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3 hours ago, Artemia said:

No, I understand that you are against this because of the nerf towards all magic classes, since in your eyes, it would have no effect on physical classes.

It's not that I was ignoring the fact that physical skills aren't locked to the basic four, making them clearly advantageous. It's true: wearing grings against a GX isn't the same as wearing one against a WL. You clearly have a bigger defensive bonus on the latter.

The point I was trying to make is that choosing to use up a slot even for something like a glorious ring opens you up to other shortcomings.

In wars, if you decide to use up a slot for a gring against a rampaging WL, you lose out on the auto-cast pneuma that would possibly save you from a FA onslaught, or grimtooth. It's not like this option is only for tanks; almost every character can utilize this change.

Switching to grings opens up opportunities for a different kind of enemy. So let's take your opinion into account: resisting the basic four is massive against magic unlike physical. My answer: if you take that slot away, either you are more open to other forms of offense, or your offensive power is diminished. Grings certainly boosts your defensive capabilities, but in exchange for a card slot and an entire accessory.

Let me state it again.
Changing into a gring:
1. Magic classes without ghost property will ignore you, while physical classes can usually ignore this switch.
2. You either have no defensive utility against these physical classes, or your damage to take them out is reduced.

I'm looking at this issue in the eyes of the defenders, and your formulations are based on the eyes of the magic class, which isn't inherently wrong. We're both in agreement that this build is in no way OP, but you believe it's an unnecessary nerf towards all magic classes. --this is kind of understandable, considering looking at the raw percentages literally spell magic classes occasionally becoming weaker.

If that's the case, here's why the nerf on paper isn't applicable: these strong magic classes "forcing" people to switch to a gring weakens them against their physical allies. I've said this so many times in this post, but I really have to. The 10% certainly looks useful, but just think about the points above. It's literally the same idea that no matter how low the damage is to a player, you are still being viable. Your magic skills do 1 damage on everyone? That means they have exposed themselves to physical classes. 1v1 scenarios aren't always good grounds for balance.

Really, the reason why I believe this isn't exactly a huge nerf for magic classes is because it isn't a flat, consistent damage reduction like a direct nerf to a magical skill. It's a switching option that holds disadvantages. Though you do have a point that it isn't affecting physical attackers, try to see the suggestion in a different light just for consideration. If ever you still think otherwise, then I'll respect your opinion and accept it as is.

Also, I never said SN was terrible. Fact is, builds that look good on paper don't always live up to expectations.

Yes I think you got my main points. But I would like to add a few more important points that I think was missed out. 

1.  So while I admit there is indeed a sacrifice by using a Gring, the trade-off is not that big compared to example using a BOP. GOP/GOSW and other useful gems/cards can still be used in the other accessory slot. On the other hand, there is only 1 slot for lower headgears. Also, I think switching of gears must always be considered. But this part I think is really subjective. 

 

2. By granting this suggestion CA would be rendered useless compared to the asprika alternative, which in my opinion is unreasonable.

 

So in essence, in my point of view, this suggestion would have negative effect on magic classes and also CA. 

 

But would like to thank you and xileria for having a healthy discussion. I do understand your position about this and I respect it. But for now, I am still not convinced to change my position for the reasons stated above.

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3 hours ago, ZeroGravity said:

Yes I think you got my main points. But I would like to add a few more important points that I think was missed out. 

1.  So while I admit there is indeed a sacrifice by using a Gring, the trade-off is not that big compared to example using a BOP. GOP/GOSW and other useful gems/cards can still be used in the other accessory slot. On the other hand, there is only 1 slot for lower headgears. Also, I think switching of gears must always be considered. But this part I think is really subjective. 

 

2. By granting this suggestion CA would be rendered useless compared to the asprika alternative, which in my opinion is unreasonable.

 

So in essence, in my point of view, this suggestion would have negative effect on magic classes and also CA. 

 

But would like to thank you and xileria for having a healthy discussion. I do understand your position about this and I respect it. But for now, I am still not convinced to change my position for the reasons stated above.

1. Gring should be valued as what it is, an accessory. As an accessory compared it to what other will sacrifice. A single accessory too. You lose one of the accessory you are supposed to be wearing, if the value of gring is as much as an artifact slotted with a gem of pneuma, or safety wall gem or even one of the faceworm cards, then there's no reason for gring to be valued heavily way more than what it is supposed to be.

Even the most powerful accessories we have are unstackable to itself, if the combination of a slotted high value accessory is way higher than grings then I agree there should be a reason why gring shouldn't be stacked with other gear, but in my honest opinion gring aren't that valueable either as a single accessory.

The reason why I said you missed my point is because you aren't thinking of gring as a single accessory. dRO can release an accessory with resistance on 2 basic elements and trust me unless it has slot it will have less value in anyone's build because right now accessory card themselves have great value. The defensive gems like pneuma and safety wall as well as the offensive gems are enough to give a single accessory too much power.

You view gring as something very game changer if combined with other gears, but what you didn't get is the fact that gring as an accessory is close to obsolete right now. Just ask yourself a simple question, are you going to use it? If you are going to use it for what purpose? You aren't giving us answers on what you believe would be op combined with it and asprika, everything you gave us is just an assumption of how it could impact magic user when in our opinion it was far from it.

I explain it myself even if you can reach 90% resistance on anything here it doesn't come without sacrifice which is why no one do that, Ninja class is one of those example as they are one of the class that can easily achieved a very high demi human reduction due to their elite gloves.

For full elemental redux, changing your accessory to 1 gring is just 1 of those sacrifice, one because if you want to utilize gring you need to change all your gears to stack it with multiple resistances otherwise it's useless as it only reduce 10% of the 4 basic elements. Regardless even 4 elemental resistance build is not completely powerful in renewal as mentioned above, a lot of class can do it but it wasn't done because it's not that effective either. With or without gring stacking with asprika, it can be done and the sacrifice even with gring stacking with asprika is nothing much different with what we already have right now.

In my opinion a 5% demi human reduction in accessory is way more OP than 10% resistance in 4 elements. And if every class can have it people will QQ. Yet ninja got one and it comes with slot and addtional stat bonus. How is that compared to 4 elements resistance ring that has no slot and can't be combined even with one of it's supposed to be easiest pair.

2. This is another thing that I can't help but question, what makes you think that combat asprika is made just so it would be combinable with grings? Combat asprika was never made just to become a "set" effect with grings. Ot was supposed to be a stand alone garment. Combat asprika's selling point is it's reduction on defense that also got less effective in renewal due to the changes in thanatos formula. If it's value right now is because of the fact that it can be combined with grings then thats not part of our concern. It's value has nothing to do with this suggestion, because another item value is the most pointless reason to keep grings unstackable with other gears.

In fact CA only managed to stay as combinable with grings because as you said, it cost a lot just to get one, more to +10 it. Otherwise it would have been long added as one of the restriction in grings especially due to the addition of other elemental resistance aura and other gears that can render 4 basic magic completely useless back in pre renewal.

Only in renewal, magic are no longer completely useless against 4 elemental full redux. It was no longer important because as I've mentioned it still hard to use 4 elemental redux right now because magic will still render you a sitting duck as you can't fight back with it. It only works well in pre re because it comes with a lot of benefits that includes getting healed with excess resistance as well as the ability to completely ignore common elemental AOEs. All of those benefits are no longer there.

Right now the combination with the addition of semi damage gear allow your class to be tanky and not easily killed which is what it is supposed to do. And that's just how other combination like asprika and a single gring would do at best.


 

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11 hours ago, Xileria said:

1. Gring should be valued as what it is, an accessory. As an accessory compared it to what other will sacrifice. A single accessory too. You lose one of the accessory you are supposed to be wearing, if the value of gring is as much as an artifact slotted with a gem of pneuma, or safety wall gem or even one of the faceworm cards, then there's no reason for gring to be valued heavily way more than what it is supposed to be.

Even the most powerful accessories we have are unstackable to itself, if the combination of a slotted high value accessory is way higher than grings then I agree there should be a reason why gring shouldn't be stacked with other gear, but in my honest opinion gring aren't that valueable either as a single accessory.

The reason why I said you missed my point is because you aren't thinking of gring as a single accessory. dRO can release an accessory with resistance on 2 basic elements and trust me unless it has slot it will have less value in anyone's build because right now accessory card themselves have great value. The defensive gems like pneuma and safety wall as well as the offensive gems are enough to give a single accessory too much power.

You view gring as something very game changer if combined with other gears, but what you didn't get is the fact that gring as an accessory is close to obsolete right now. Just ask yourself a simple question, are you going to use it? If you are going to use it for what purpose? You aren't giving us answers on what you believe would be op combined with it and asprika, everything you gave us is just an assumption of how it could impact magic user when in our opinion it was far from it.

I explain it myself even if you can reach 90% resistance on anything here it doesn't come without sacrifice which is why no one do that, Ninja class is one of those example as they are one of the class that can easily achieved a very high demi human reduction due to their elite gloves.

For full elemental redux, changing your accessory to 1 gring is just 1 of those sacrifice, one because if you want to utilize gring you need to change all your gears to stack it with multiple resistances otherwise it's useless as it only reduce 10% of the 4 basic elements. Regardless even 4 elemental resistance build is not completely powerful in renewal as mentioned above, a lot of class can do it but it wasn't done because it's not that effective either. With or without gring stacking with asprika, it can be done and the sacrifice even with gring stacking with asprika is nothing much different with what we already have right now.

In my opinion a 5% demi human reduction in accessory is way more OP than 10% resistance in 4 elements. And if every class can have it people will QQ. Yet ninja got one and it comes with slot and addtional stat bonus. How is that compared to 4 elements resistance ring that has no slot and can't be combined even with one of it's supposed to be easiest pair.

2. This is another thing that I can't help but question, what makes you think that combat asprika is made just so it would be combinable with grings? Combat asprika was never made just to become a "set" effect with grings. Ot was supposed to be a stand alone garment. Combat asprika's selling point is it's reduction on defense that also got less effective in renewal due to the changes in thanatos formula. If it's value right now is because of the fact that it can be combined with grings then thats not part of our concern. It's value has nothing to do with this suggestion, because another item value is the most pointless reason to keep grings unstackable with other gears.

In fact CA only managed to stay as combinable with grings because as you said, it cost a lot just to get one, more to +10 it. Otherwise it would have been long added as one of the restriction in grings especially due to the addition of other elemental resistance aura and other gears that can render 4 basic magic completely useless back in pre renewal.

Only in renewal, magic are no longer completely useless against 4 elemental full redux. It was no longer important because as I've mentioned it still hard to use 4 elemental redux right now because magic will still render you a sitting duck as you can't fight back with it. It only works well in pre re because it comes with a lot of benefits that includes getting healed with excess resistance as well as the ability to completely ignore common elemental AOEs. All of those benefits are no longer there.

Right now the combination with the addition of semi damage gear allow your class to be tanky and not easily killed which is what it is supposed to do. And that's just how other combination like asprika and a single gring would do at best.


 

1. As i have mentioned repeatedly in this thread, nerfing magic and physical damage works differently. Compared to demi human redux and long range resist, elemental resist can easily reach 90-99%. Since most magic users heavily rely on these 4 basic elements, the suggestion would impact them more. 

 

This suggestion is to allow stacking of grings with asprika. It is logical to analyze grings with asprika. 

 

For the ninja reference, I think it is irrelevant. First, demi human redux doesnt reach 99%. Second, elite weap/gloves effects are unique to each class. 

 

About using grings, I still do use grings on certain occasions and it works. I might not be a vet, but based on my experience, it works and it can do well. So for me, it is not obsolete.

 

2. I never said CA was made solely to be paired with grings. What I was pointing out is this suggestion would basically render CAs useless and always a bad alternative over asprika, which again for me is unreasonable since ca is more expensive, harder to obtain, and requires upgrade.

 

While I agree with you about the renewal elemental resist mechanics and pre renewal mechanics are different, I would not say elemental resist is useless or is not as useful. 

 

Basically the effect of this suggestion is

1. Asprika + Glorious Ring

30% All element resist

40% 4 basic element resist

 

2. +10 CA with Cautious + Glorious Ring

Small defense reduce

10% long range resist

20% all element resist

30% 4 basic elements resist

This suggestion takes away the option of having 2 glorious ring+CA

 

Just based on the stat above, asprika is definitely better than CA based on the suggestion.

 

Currently the effects are:

1. Asprika

All elements resist 30%

 

2. +10 CA (cautious)with 1 glorious ring

Small defence reduce

10% long range resist

all elements resist 20%

4 basic elements resist 30%

 

3. CA option with 2 grings

Sma defence reduce

10% long range resist

All elements resist 20%

4 basic elements resist 30%

 

So in my opinion the current setup is better. Why? It has a balance between asprika and CA. While asprika has higher all element resist, Ca has small lowering of defense and long range resist. If CA wants to achieve nerfing 4 basic elements, it needs to sacrifice 1-2 accessories.

 

Again, I do respect and understand your opinion. But I still disagree with it. Thanks!

Edited by ZeroGravity

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Again this is why I said you don't get the point because your point is valued based on combat asprika's market price and it's combination with glorious ring which is again pointless. What you never understand is the fact that based on your logic, anyone here can propose to disable combat asprika and glorious ring combination too.

How?

Simple just point the fact that even elite asprika is disabled with glorious ring too. The very fact that combat asprika with a lot of other bonuses and can reach higher resistance and can be combined with glorious ring make it a perfect reason to disable it too.

You keep on missing the point because you don't understand the reason why elite asprika was also disabled with grings before. Just ponder on it yourself on why elite asprika was in the list of disabled combination with gring and you'll realized that combat asprika and glorious ring combination are never supposed to work together either.

That's why in my opinion, if there's no reason to make combat asprika disabled with glorious ring, then there's no reason to make it disabled with other garment either. But I am offering making it unstackable to itself to avoid any chance of higher resistance. Regardless I hope you realize it by now on how pointless is your argument regarding combat asprika and glorious ring combination when it can be disabled anytime and make your so called value by combination ruined the same way.

The only reason I made a reference on how much resistance combat asprika and glorious ring combination can reach compared to asprika and 1 glorious ring is to point out the fact that even if you can reach a normal resistance like that, it's still acceptable. Otherwise we would get a lot of complains by now to disable those combination. We also pointed out how easy it is to reach 99% resistance on 4 basic elements with some classes with or without glorious ring just to show how 4 full elemental resistance is no longer a subject for concern.

And again, Defense reduction is the main point of Combat asprika, not elemental resistance, now if that effect is lesser than a non slotted asprika when combined with glorious ring then what's the problem with it? It simply means that combat asprika is less effective than asprika when it comes to elemental resistance. And there's no problem with it because combat asprika selling point again and again is the fact that it has defense reduction not it's resistance. Another point about it is the fact that it is slotted. It has a slot so you can use other card in it not only cautious howard. Non slotted asprika has high resistance because it has no slot and resistance is it's forte. Try to compare asprika with combat asprika with  their ability to stack def reduction perhaps? Then i'll say when it comes to stacking def reduction combat asprika is amazingly higher than asprika.

You keep on valuing combat asprika because of it's price. What if price of combat asprika is cheaper than non slotted asprika? Will your opinion change? That is exactly what's wrong in your opinion. You keep on valuing these item based on it's price, it's combination with glorious ring has nothing to do with this suggestion.
 

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Base on my in game experience..

Gx player in woe

I think there is no big deal to make 1 g ring stack with asprika and make 2 g ring unstack able

 

It just add more option to use in build

On the acc slot..

Woe is not about just magic

There is asura/acid netral resist needed

Sg  kick/sacri 100 pd needed

magic spam 4 element resist needed

(There is magic skill to counter this 4 element resist too)

Long range damage pnuema gem needed

Physical damage safety wall gem needed

And some times offensive mode gem of power needed

And there still acc stripper and the last is

The most powerfull effect on the game is

Dispell still there ( i hate this spam able)

So no way to use this g ring 24/ 7 all the time

It just add an option for player to choose.

CA is good but not many player can afford it

If asprika can stack it would be NICE for a lot of players

 

But if you look for pvp balance..

I have no comment

 

 

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15 hours ago, Xileria said:



Again this is why I said you don't get the point because your point is valued based on combat asprika's market price and it's combination with glorious ring which is again pointless. What you never understand is the fact that based on your logic, anyone here can propose to disable combat asprika and glorious ring combination too.

How?

Simple just point the fact that even elite asprika is disabled with glorious ring too. The very fact that combat asprika with a lot of other bonuses and can reach higher resistance and can be combined with glorious ring make it a perfect reason to disable it too.

You keep on missing the point because you don't understand the reason why elite asprika was also disabled with grings before. Just ponder on it yourself on why elite asprika was in the list of disabled combination with gring and you'll realized that combat asprika and glorious ring combination are never supposed to work together either.

That's why in my opinion, if there's no reason to make combat asprika disabled with glorious ring, then there's no reason to make it disabled with other garment either. But I am offering making it unstackable to itself to avoid any chance of higher resistance. Regardless I hope you realize it by now on how pointless is your argument regarding combat asprika and glorious ring combination when it can be disabled anytime and make your so called value by combination ruined the same way.

The only reason I made a reference on how much resistance combat asprika and glorious ring combination can reach compared to asprika and 1 glorious ring is to point out the fact that even if you can reach a normal resistance like that, it's still acceptable. Otherwise we would get a lot of complains by now to disable those combination. We also pointed out how easy it is to reach 99% resistance on 4 basic elements with some classes with or without glorious ring just to show how 4 full elemental resistance is no longer a subject for concern.

And again, Defense reduction is the main point of Combat asprika, not elemental resistance, now if that effect is lesser than a non slotted asprika when combined with glorious ring then what's the problem with it? It simply means that combat asprika is less effective than asprika when it comes to elemental resistance. And there's no problem with it because combat asprika selling point again and again is the fact that it has defense reduction not it's resistance. Another point about it is the fact that it is slotted. It has a slot so you can use other card in it not only cautious howard. Non slotted asprika has high resistance because it has no slot and resistance is it's forte. Try to compare asprika with combat asprika with  their ability to stack def reduction perhaps? Then i'll say when it comes to stacking def reduction combat asprika is amazingly higher than asprika.

You keep on valuing combat asprika because of it's price. What if price of combat asprika is cheaper than non slotted asprika? Will your opinion change? That is exactly what's wrong in your opinion. You keep on valuing these item based on it's price, it's combination with glorious ring has nothing to do with this suggestion.
 

Well, the admin has the final say on this. I don't think convincing me is necessary. I think we would just be going in circles debating. Like I said, I definitely understand your point of view and I respect it. However, my opinion is different from it. It is up for the admin to decide. 

 

I would like to address some of the points you raised here:

1. We can never ignore market price of Combat Asprika because the suggestion would affect it too. (2 glorious rings wont work any more and a better alternative would be available)

2. My position was never purely about market price. In fact, I have mentioned "expensive" and "hard to get." It is expensive because it is obtainable only through combat coins and DM. Just based on donation price, +0 CA is more expensive than EA and asprika. It is also rarer and harder to obtain. The reason why I mentioned "hard to get" is because the market price is somehow subjective. However, the rarity and difficulty to obtain this item can never be denied. To refine it to +8 to +10 is even harder. This is the reason why I am saying CA should at least have "some" advantage over Asprika or EA. Btw, I do get you point that previously the "main" value of CA is the defense reduction. But like I said, the reason why I disagree with this suggestion is based on the current circumstances that it is one of the few remaining pros of CA over asprika. 

3. I think it was unnecessary to bring up EA in the discussion. But since you mentioned it, a +0 EA has more resist than CA. Also, it is easier to obtain (DTOKS and War Badges). CA was meant to be an end game item. The reason that CA should have some advantage over its counterpart is even more magnified with asprika considering that it is available to almost everyone. 

4. I really understood that the point of your suggestion is "the reason" behind making it unstackable or not. However, I still think that this has negative effects. Like I said, magic classes would be affected in pvp. This is applicable both in wars and 1 vs 1. I do agree that 1 vs 1 is not a good basis in determining whether something is good or bad. This is the reason why I am talking about magic classes as a whole. In fact, in my previous replies in this thread, I never mentioned a 1 vs 1 scenario. The effect I am talking about is on magic classes as a whole. This negative effect is even more magnified in 1 vs 1 scenarios. While it is not a good basis in determining whether something is good or bad, I think these scenarios should be considered too, although not given as much weight as overall pvp.

 

Again, I do understand your opinions, but my opinion is different. I really think you did raised valid points, however, my position is still the same. I am still not in favor of this suggestion. We have raised our opinions in this thread and hopefully it was helpful to others too. I think it is up to the admin to decide. 

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9 hours ago, ZeroGravity said:

Well, the admin has the final say on this. I don't think convincing me is necessary. I think we would just be going in circles debating. Like I said, I definitely understand your point of view and I respect it. However, my opinion is different from it. It is up for the admin to decide. 

 

I would like to address some of the points you raised here:

1. We can never ignore market price of Combat Asprika because the suggestion would affect it too. (2 glorious rings wont work any more and a better alternative would be available)

2. My position was never purely about market price. In fact, I have mentioned "expensive" and "hard to get." It is expensive because it is obtainable only through combat coins and DM. Just based on donation price, +0 CA is more expensive than EA and asprika. It is also rarer and harder to obtain. The reason why I mentioned "hard to get" is because the market price is somehow subjective. However, the rarity and difficulty to obtain this item can never be denied. To refine it to +8 to +10 is even harder. This is the reason why I am saying CA should at least have "some" advantage over Asprika or EA. Btw, I do get you point that previously the "main" value of CA is the defense reduction. But like I said, the reason why I disagree with this suggestion is based on the current circumstances that it is one of the few remaining pros of CA over asprika. 

3. I think it was unnecessary to bring up EA in the discussion. But since you mentioned it, a +0 EA has more resist than CA. Also, it is easier to obtain (DTOKS and War Badges). CA was meant to be an end game item. The reason that CA should have some advantage over its counterpart is even more magnified with asprika considering that it is available to almost everyone. 

4. I really understood that the point of your suggestion is "the reason" behind making it unstackable or not. However, I still think that this has negative effects. Like I said, magic classes would be affected in pvp. This is applicable both in wars and 1 vs 1. I do agree that 1 vs 1 is not a good basis in determining whether something is good or bad. This is the reason why I am talking about magic classes as a whole. In fact, in my previous replies in this thread, I never mentioned a 1 vs 1 scenario. The effect I am talking about is on magic classes as a whole. This negative effect is even more magnified in 1 vs 1 scenarios. While it is not a good basis in determining whether something is good or bad, I think these scenarios should be considered too, although not given as much weight as overall pvp.

 

Again, I do understand your opinions, but my opinion is different. I really think you did raised valid points, however, my position is still the same. I am still not in favor of this suggestion. We have raised our opinions in this thread and hopefully it was helpful to others too. I think it is up to the admin to decide. 


To be honest you really prolly understand the point but your judgement is clouded, and what's the point of discussion if it's not to show the other person that you have a basis for your opinion. Regardless the discussion had turn to be some kind of fun to me because this is how this discussion sound to anyone who can analyze it better.

Your opinion: Asprika and 1 glorious effect resistance is a little better than combat asprika, cautious howard and 2 glorious ring.
My question on your point: Is asprika and 1 glorious effect resistance OP? Because I can argue that CA is not the best garment for resistance there's a reason why it has other effect other than it's only 10% resistance.
Your opinion: Combat asprika cost a lot. The changes shouldn't be done because its going to affect it's price and ruin the current combo.

Do you see how your point just  ignore the real question? Do you see how you never answer anything on point that's why I keep on saying that you never get the point at all.

Do you realize this is not a discussion regarding the effect of combat asprika, or its price and supply but the possible effect of Asprika and 1 glorious ring, on whether such combo will have crazy impact in PVP just the same way it did back in pre renewal? See how other players answer the topic here either, it's mostly regarding how glorious ring and asprika effect will have impact in PVP. Like Fasdr comment on how he believe it will work out on WoE though he didn't give an opinion regarding the usual PVP.

To be honest I can answer all your points properly but most of your points are simply too far from the main point of the topic. I am only answering it just so the other with the same mindset as you can understand a bit of it.


1-2 Prices/Supply. No, in fact it should be ignored. If the decision on whether to nerf kimi was based on it's market price before what would happen once it's price drop and it's supply increase? Everyone can claim the same back then, that Kimi is an endgame item, it has high cost. It's hard to obtain why it should be nerf? It was nerf not because of it's price nor its supply but because of it's effect. I understand if you believe that combat asprika is underwhelming but that's in fact your opinion that I don't want to further discuss because for classes that can utilize defense reduction like tanker class such as RG, I can argue that it's not that underwhelming at all. But again combat asprika is not the point of this discussion but asprika and glorious ring effect as themselves, on whether they will be OP or not. In fact that's what I am hoping to hear from other veterans, if they can argue that those 2 if combined can still cause a huge impact in PVP.

3. Even your point about Combat asprika being better than Elite asprika is in fact wrong. Combat asprika was never made to be better than elite asprika but rather to have a close to equal but different effect. It just happen that combat asprika def reduction back then is really great even for some class. To be honest the current price of combat asprika is just the result of a bad estimate. Do you really think that combat quest is supposed to be extremely difficult? I'll tell you it wasn't supposed to be like that, it was supposed to be like a regular daily quest for active PVP players. It just didn't work that way, otherwise with the number of estimated players doing it, the price of those items and supply would by now easy to obtain by public. This is also why it can be put in treasure chest woe token exchange and get cheaper and haze won't care what ever impact it does on their price.

4. Your basis for this though? I don't want to repeat what I said before, all you have is the assumption on how it will affect this and that. You aren't providing any basis for it.

although this is the one that I really want to read the most, what I need is your basis for it, what build do you think will get this effect.

If you don't mind the resistance of combat asprika and 2 glorious ring combo then how come asprika and 1 gring combo would make that huge impact considering the very small difference when it comes to resistance? You can point out the fact that they can wear 1 other accessory but as I've asked would it be OP? How?

In fact I also believe that even 99% resistance is useless at this point because whatever build i make up right now, it's only good for tanking and it's less efficient than the hybrid. That's why I pointed out how easy it is for some class to reach 99% resistance without this glorious ring. Because it's already there, it's just that it wasn't being used anymore because it's not that efficient.

What magic class would die because of it?

Warlock can dispel and napalm
Sorc can dispel too and even spam it easily.
Super novice are the class that could get impacted well by it. But ask them if they care when they are the one who are supposed to be tanky with it, there's too many things that could easily counter the class, and even if other want to reach resistance against them it's already possible, what's to QQ about it?
Ninja is the same, they are never meant to be a magical class alone, so for me the flaw in them is their broken skills. You can't argue that way if ninja physical skill is working decently because it's nothing different when an RG QQ how easy PD can be obtained in the server and how it easily counter his build. In fact I don't know who why would they need to use 4 full elemental resistance against a ninja. Most ninja spam 1-2 fatal elemental skill and if you want to counter them that's already possible now.

Now if you are telling me that it will affect magic because it will reduce it's damage dramatically, then I'll just leave it as your opinion because in my opinion, magic damage is the easiest to improve not to mention how they got lex on magic now. Also their ability to cause different statuses when using it. Silent, curse, blind, stun and as long that it hit they can potentially cause it.

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