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Oboro, Kagerou and Rebellion Skills

Should Oboro/Kagerou & Rebellion skills be DISABLED in 2nd job PvP/WoE/BG Arenas?  

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2 minutes ago, Artemia said:

I'm neutral on the Ninja balancing, viability or idk discussion. The point of my entire post was to state that Ninjas are almost never entirely useless in any war scenario.

It would be unless the fuma shuriken mechanic is also reverted to pre renewal formula and HA is PURELY pre renewal.

Edited by ZeroGravity

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This has always been a problem we'd like to report but with all respect before the meta change there isn't really anything to hope for. A few topics were made back then but were disguised as another title; somehow turn into ninja-quarrelling thread, here's one I remember and I can find:

You can just imagine my horror when I got spammed 20k per-hit in a wind blade (changeable in other elements) with a spamming speed bursting, next second 2M hp is gone, nerfing the elements are 1 thing but lvl 4 AB spam dispel like crazy, and no one can touch the ninja because they can jump across the screen and dodge a range attack almost most of the time. You just gotta see ninja as a whole, of what it can do; despite it being flagged renewal or 3rd or not, It's about balance regardless;

1 hour ago, HaZe said:

it was literally broken damage

Ninja problem is definitely not new, although you haven't seen any complaint about it on forum recently, its clear in my mind last year when I just got started, people actually stopped/ refrain from going hhh because ninja exists. its definitely a real problem, you can't argue it isn't just because the specific topic about it hasn't been made. Also people had already gotten over it and lived with it assuming they were normal. plus, people just don't have the nerve to suggest anything at all knowing it will be immediately getting dished and ignored (this was different era)

Despite it being broken and all, banning them from all 2nd maps sounds quite unjust, these are active-alive players we are talking about.

Edited by caramellmacchiato
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Its not banning ninja in second its just banning certain skills like charms hide jump shadow trapple and so in second tab skill tree of ninja thats whats ninja op in ha 

Edited by GhostAlpha1
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i agree with this one also, imagine a group of team with a ninja u cant fully nerf ninja during war scenario coz of too high damage  surrounding players around it ,even ninja itself alone in HA cant be killed he just pick up his food not like experiencing a war before even with wl or sorc inside melees or range is a great war but a glass cannon class like this one is not on par with any class imagine a ninja 100 kill streak unkillable even with range or melee as it has full package skills and fleeing type. no wonder pvps dead lately base on stats.

 

i think even nerfing its damages not enough though it has tatami/ciceda even if u nerf it still pretty damn usefull during small pvp or war. this is a great idea. theres a lot of jobs before that are great to play with and im guessing 1-2months pvp will be active.

 

u cant just nerfed ninjas damage it self going on a full element resist during war there are others to back u up and their damage wil lhe high cuase theyre nerfing ninjas damage not the other players.

magic of wl or even sorc is pretty balanced but ninjas magic skills are pretty damn op also those fleeing type cause of spammable theres not even a chance of being hit u can just precast it then u can spam again.

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@ZeroGravity you are the man cry alot about ninja class with something will change . I was long lived pvp since pre renewal until renewal release . Pre renewal Ninja with out wearing 2 weapon and charms buff like Orobo/Kagerou did their magic damage still good . So this change just like give back HA itself with 2nd class skill pvp like pre renewal and this change not killing this class. We are coming pvp for a part teamwork not making a cannon class burst insane damage killing a group . Ninja with skill survival Cicada and Tatami really hard to touch. 

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1 hour ago, JIROU said:

@ZeroGravity you are the man cry alot about ninja class with something will change . I was long lived pvp since pre renewal until renewal release . Pre renewal Ninja with out wearing 2 weapon and charms buff like Orobo/Kagerou did their magic damage still good . So this change just like give back HA itself with 2nd class skill pvp like pre renewal and this change not killing this class. We are coming pvp for a part teamwork not making a cannon class burst insane damage killing a group . Ninja with skill survival Cicada and Tatami really hard to touch. 

Read my comment. If you want ha to be pre renewal then make it ALL pre renewal, including items skills cards and mechanics. But since it is not the case, it should be enabled.

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So in a full pre-renewal arena, you're saying HaZe should:

1. Revert changes to DEF reductions (DEF and MDEF calculations)

2. Revert the formula of Thanatos card, discarding all changes, discussions, and brainstorming on the current formula

 

3. Revert changes to certain items such as Noble Hat (-10% Demi-human resist)

4. Effectively destroy some builds and strategies (Elvira+GoLightning, usage of Eclage recovery consumables)

5. Turn renewal instance cards useless in 2nds (Celine Kimi, Evil Imbued Box and other HTF cards, Coelacanth line)

6. Revert changes to skill behavior (Cart Termination, Sacrifice, etc.)

Now, I know you're aware of how impractical this is, and you're using it as an argument to enable the skills in question. Sooo I'll quote myself:

11 hours ago, Artemia said:
On 7/16/2019 at 9:15 AM, HaZe said:

Oboro/Kagerou/Rebellion skills are still not balanced, much like a lot of the 3rd job skills.

I'd like to consider this one of the biggest reasons why it was disabled.

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2 hours ago, Artemia said:

So in a full pre-renewal arena, you're saying HaZe should:

1. Revert changes to DEF reductions (DEF and MDEF calculations)

2. Revert the formula of Thanatos card, discarding all changes, discussions, and brainstorming on the current formula

 

3. Revert changes to certain items such as Noble Hat (-10% Demi-human resist)

4. Effectively destroy some builds and strategies (Elvira+GoLightning, usage of Eclage recovery consumables)

5. Turn renewal instance cards useless in 2nds (Celine Kimi, Evil Imbued Box and other HTF cards, Coelacanth line)

6. Revert changes to skill behavior (Cart Termination, Sacrifice, etc.)

Now, I know you're aware of how impractical this is, and you're using it as an argument to enable the skills in question. Sooo I'll quote myself:

My main argument is that it is a 2ND JOB skill. Initially, i thought ha is 2nd job skills and 3rd arena is 3rd job skills. However as mentioned by our admin, ha should be pre renewal and 3rds arena is renewal-ish.

 

This is why the argument became ha should be ALL pre renewal. 

 

For your comment that the skills are not yet balanced, the proper way is to balance the skills not disable them. This already happened in patch 2 reducing elemental damage even if physical build ninja are still NOT viable.

 

To summarize, I advocate that the skills must be enabled because it is ONLY A 2ND JOB SKILL. Since it is being disabled for the reason that it is a RENEWAL CONCEPT, I am on the position that this is UNJUST, because other RENEWAL CONCEPTS are enabled. This is why these skills must be enabled.

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1. Your opinion is to balance the job whilst letting players use them in the meantime.

2. My opinion is to balance the job, and to disable it until further notice.

I was not asking about why you wanted to enable them. I understand your reasoning pretty well. Honestly, I'm not even interested whether these skills are 2nds/3rds/Trans or whatever people call them, or in which order they were implemented.

That was why I quoted HaZe about the balancing, and not about the limitations he had in mind for the arenas.

Enabled/Disabled in HA? I don't really mind either way. All I'm saying is I personally agree to your opinion of balancing them, and disabling the skills temporarily, AND bringing them back into the PvP scene once they have been balanced.

I presented my replies simply as a form of discussion.

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22 minutes ago, Artemia said:

1. Your opinion is to balance the job whilst letting players use them in the meantime.

2. My opinion is to balance the job, and to disable it until further notice.

I was not asking about why you wanted to enable them. I understand your reasoning pretty well. Honestly, I'm not even interested whether these skills are 2nds/3rds/Trans or whatever people call them, or in which order they were implemented.

That was why I quoted HaZe about the balancing, and not about the limitations he had in mind for the arenas.

Enabled/Disabled in HA? I don't really mind either way. All I'm saying is I personally agree to your opinion of balancing them, and disabling the skills temporarily, AND bringing them back into the PvP scene once they have been balanced.

I presented my replies simply as a form of discussion.

Like I said, it was already balanced. The elemental damage was already reduced in patch 2. I don’t see the point in disabling it right after a nerf.

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1 minute ago, ZeroGravity said:

Like I said, it was already balanced. The elemental damage was already reduced in patch 2. I don’t see the point in disabling it right after a nerf.

You should know that nerfing something doesn't always mean it's already balanced.

On 2/22/2019 at 1:16 AM, Xero said:

It's always been my belief that for something to be balanced, it needs to be able to be countered. Pretty much the same argument I have brought up in every single debate, whether it was Ninjas, Tarot, etc.

Facing ninjas in HA before the nerf forced you to resist the element 90-100% or instantly die, either from the ninja or from another class. Even 90% wasn't enough most of the time. How do you counter that? Not playing PvP?

---But that's a topic for another day. I'll lay off the thread and stop replying so you all can continue the discussion.

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28 minutes ago, ZeroGravity said:

Like I said, it was already balanced. The elemental damage was already reduced in patch 2. I don’t see the point in disabling it right after a nerf.

Just stop complaining there are other class that you can play with. Not only ninja 

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1 minute ago, Artemia said:

You should know that nerfing something doesn't always mean it's already balanced.

Facing ninjas in HA before the nerf forced you to resist the element 90-100% or instantly die, either from the ninja or from another class. Even 90% wasn't enough most of the time. How do you counter that? Not playing PvP?

---But that's a topic for another day. I'll lay off the thread and stop replying so you all can continue the discussion.

Nerfing something is a way to achieve balance. Disabling a whole skill set would be even more detrimental in achieving the balance because people wouldnt be able to conduct actual tests.

 

For the 2nd part, it is already moot. It is already nerfed. Have you tested it after nerf? This is my point, the skillset was disabled right after a nerf. I do not think this is reasonable.

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1 minute ago, jamieson said:

Just stop complaining there are other class that you can play with. Not only ninja 

Unfortunately haze is the one who asked for views, opinions and discussions on this matter. 

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1 minute ago, ZeroGravity said:

Unfortunately haze is the one who asked for views, opinions and discussions on this matter. 

Yes and as you can see a lot of people disagree with you isn’t that enough to stop complaining and instead go practice other character than ranting here all day. Go to tulfo if you want

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22 minutes ago, jamieson said:

Yes and as you can see a lot of people disagree with you isn’t that enough to stop complaining and instead go practice other character than ranting here all day. Go to tulfo if you want

Being in the minority position doesn’t mean you stop advocating your position. And yes I do play around 5-6 jobs. I am advocating this position because I think it is unreasonable. If you think otherwise, stay on the topic and mind your own business. This thread is a discussion on the issue of skills of kagerou, oborro and rebellions. Instead of telling people to stop advocating their cause, Join an intellectual discussion and state your reasons why you disagree.

Edited by ZeroGravity

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The votes have spoken. Everybody knows how op ninja is on both sides

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6 minutes ago, ZeroGravity said:

Being in the minority position doesn’t mean you stop advocating your position. And yes I do play around 5-6 jobs. I am advocating this position because I think it is unreasonable. If you think otherwise, stay on the topic and mind your own business. Join an intellectual discussion.

Maybe unreasonable for you but for the majority of us it is reasonable and its for the best for this server. Just accept the wants of the many than yourself. And you think your suggestion is very helpful or making any sense? Haha as if!! You keep on giving suggestion but no sense at all. Just go buy customize item RMT boy 🙂

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On 7/16/2019 at 8:15 AM, HaZe said:

Oboro/Kagerou/Rebellion skills are still not balanced

 

1 hour ago, ZeroGravity said:

Like I said, it was already balanced.

the contrast.

 

1 hour ago, Artemia said:

You should know that nerfing something doesn't always mean it's already balanced.

 

56 minutes ago, ZeroGravity said:

Nerfing something is a way to achieve balance.

but it isn't there yet, is it?

 

1 hour ago, Artemia said:

1. Your opinion is to balance the job whilst letting players use them in the meantime.

2. My opinion is to balance the job, and to disable it until further notice.

point 1 lets the unbalanced skill continue to be taken advantage of and will further kill the HA dynamic whether you're realizing this or not. as much as you hate the enemy guild, they are the active players that makes everything alive, their opinions mattered too.

after point 2 happen, people actually are encouraged to go pvp and give it a go one more time, because it's suddenly seem fair to join again.

the contrast

I'd like to see Ninja-Rebellion in 2nd maps again though, don't get me wrong. It seems quite unjust that ninja-rebellion main suddenly died out in a blink of an eye. but just not with the same unbalanced skills.

Edited by caramellmacchiato
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4 minutes ago, troy101 said:

The votes have spoken. Everybody knows how op ninja is on both sides

Exactly my point but this “genius” don’t get it and keep on complaining hahaha

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2 minutes ago, jamieson said:

Maybe unreasonable for you but for the majority of us it is reasonable and its for the best for this server. Just accept the wants of the many than yourself. And you think your suggestion is very helpful or making any sense? Haha as if!! You keep on giving suggestion but no sense at all. Just go buy customize item RMT boy 🙂

Well I gave facts which people never denied. This facts may indicate that disabling the skills might really be unreasonable. Like i said majority doesn’t always mean it is right. I leave it to haze whether my suggestion has any sense or no. I wont stoop down to attack people personally.

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